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Do you aspire to make a positive impact on the environment and society through your career? If so, you won’t want to miss the latest episode of the Sustainability Skill Set podcast.
In this interview, Louis DeMaso sits down with Anmol Vanamali, an accomplished leader in the field of climate and energy policy, international finance, and sustainable infrastructure. Anmol has held multiple director-level positions in global non-profit organizations, such as the Center for Clean Air Policy and Winrock International. Currently, he is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University’s Master of Science in Foreign Service program.
Anmol brings a unique skill set to the conversation, with expertise in green finance and impact investments. He offers valuable insights into the most crucial sustainability issues of our time, including the challenges of achieving sustainable development goals and how we can make progress in both the private and non-profit sectors.
During the interview, Anmol shares his experience and discusses his career path, offering advice to those interested in pursuing a career in sustainability. He emphasizes the importance of finding the right company and manager to work with, charting out a clear plan of focus, and developing a deep understanding of the interrelationships between climate and various parts of the economy or the socioeconomic structures that surround us.
Anmol also talks about the role of top-down leadership in driving change and the importance of stakeholder management in addition to shareholder management. He shares his optimism about the future of sustainable development, noting the growing recognition of the urgency of these issues and the increasing opportunities for young professionals to make an impact.
Don’t miss this chance to learn from Anmol’s expertise and gain insights into the career paths available in sustainability. Whether you’re just starting out or looking to take your career to the next level, this interview provides valuable advice and inspiration for anyone seeking to make a difference in the world.
In this episode, we cover:
- [00:01:56] How did Anmol wind up working in jobs at the intersection of public policy, sustainable finance, and climate change?
- [00:10:19] What is impact investing and how can you start working in the field?
- [00:23:32] Anmol’s favorite framework for bringing businesses together to conserve resources.
- [00:25:59] How new schools of thought are creating ‘the wild west of management theory’.
- [00:29:18] Where to start if you are young, passionate, and want to have an impact.
- [00:40:03] The three most important steps for us to take to accelerate our transition to a more sustainable world.
Read Instead
Introducing Anmol Vanamali: Adjunct Professor of Business and Sustainability at Georgetown University
[00:00:00] Louis DeMaso
Hello and welcome to the Sustainability Skillset Podcast. A show where we explore careers and sustainability and the skills to help you succeed.
I’m glad you’re here. If you are passionate about sustainability and hungry to learn, you’re in the right place.
I’m your host, Louis DeMaso, a sustainability consultant and young sustainability, professional learning right along with you.
Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Anmol Vanamali, a leading voice in the areas of climate and energy policy, international finance, and sustainable infrastructure.
Anmol has held multiple director level roles in global nonprofit organizations such as the Center for Clean Air Policy (CCAP) and Winrock International. Through these roles, he has guided investments in renewable energy projects and designed innovative financing solutions to enhance the impact of global development portfolios.
For example, as director of sustainable finance at Winrock international, he led activities in Indonesia for the Private Investment for Enhanced Resilience (PIER) project, a private sector partnership focused on mobilizing private investment in agriculture resilience.
Anmol has repeatedly involved himself into creation, financing, and successful implementation of large multi-stakeholder projects that drive positive change.
He is currently an adjunct professor at Georgetown University’s Master of Science in Foreign Service program, where he leads the course called Sustainability & Business – Adapting for the 21st Century. The course explores best practices in corporate sustainability and how business can solve the most crucial sustainability issues of our time.
Anmol also serves on the board of directors for the Center for Clean Air Policy (CCAP), a nonprofit independent research organization that focuses on advancing policies and actions to address climate change and promote sustainable energy and transportation. CCAP as it’s called, has been recognized for their work by organizations, such as The United Nations, The World Bank, and the Pew Center on Global Climate Change.
In this episode, we dive into Anmol’s career and his unique skillset in green finance. We discuss how impact investments work, what Anmol has learned about building a career in sustainability, and what it takes to create a positive impact in both the private and nonprofit sectors.
Good morning Anmol, thanks so much for joining us today. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:55] Anmol Vanamali
Morning, Louis.
How did Anmol wind up working in jobs at the intersection of public policy, sustainable finance, and climate change?
[00:01:56] Louis DeMaso
Could we start by exploring the major themes of your career and what those look like?
[00:02:01] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, sure. I’ve had a career for about 15 years so far and I would say it’s gone anywhere from sustainable finance to green energy to climate change and roles have overlapped these themes, but those have mostly been the areas that I’ve worked on, but that’s sort of on the thematic side.
On what has driven me towards this career, I think has been more of a desire to find a purpose behind what I’m doing with my time and my life.
The other aspect that has motivated me often is the ability to break down barriers and build bridges, just essentially two sides of the same coin.
Finally, the question about what’s next about bootstrapping, what I’ve learned from one job to another.
So, you know, looking back, it seems like a well laid out career, but the honest truth is that it’s always been understanding what more I seek, as a way to impact the world and, and then find my next role.
[00:02:57] Louis DeMaso
Could you describe a bit about that purpose aspect and what drove you to get into the positions that you’ve held over the years?
[00:03:03] Anmol Vanamal
Sure. you know, my first job coming out of business school in India was to work in helping finance large scale infrastructure like roads and ports and this was about 25 years ago when India was facing a massive infrastructure deficit.
From that perspective, it seemed like a job that was helping my country, which is India, move to a, a better place. But, as I got into the field of financing infrastructure, I realized that while of course there may be a road that now makes your life easier, it comes at the expense of deforestation, at the expense of uprooting people who were, who are living, where now the road exists.
That’s when I realized that, as consumers, we tend to overlook some of the impacts of everything around us that we enjoy consuming, whether it’s roads or even food for that matter.
So that’s what then made me realize, well, I mean, maybe there’s a better way to do things and maybe the purpose behind what I seek next should be to understand how to design markets in a way that not only maximize the economic outcomes like the construction of a road but to ensure that the impact on the environment and society is minimized.
That started my journey. After that I took a job in renewable energy financing because at grad school in the US I understood the, the importance of the clean energy transition as a way to meet climate goals.
So I worked on clean energy financing but then again this were right before the great financial crisis and coming out of it, I realized, well, it’s great to work on green energy financing, but what’s the point if the financial markets are designed in a way that privatized profits and socialize all the downsides, because essentially that was the big lesson of the great financial crisis.
Coming out of that, I decided to work on climate finance policy, in which I was advising governments around the world to better design more equitable markets. Like how do you mobilize private capital for public good, but ensure that, you know, the outcomes are equitable.
From there on, I went to do impact investing in clean energy in the US to help increase access for clean energy in underserved markets like low income housing, schools, et cetera. Again, recognizing that while green energy was catching on, it was only being utilized or consumed by the upper echelons of a society and there were large parts of a society getting left behind.
Then over the past four years I’ve been working on international development finance, trying to use the same lessons I’ve learned all throughout, but then working on interna international development to ensure that our foreign aid is again, being used in the most optimal manner to meet our sustainable development goals.
[00:05:35] Louis DeMaso
That sounds incredibly interesting.
All of the work that you’ve done advising governments on development and global finance, I definitely want to dig into that.
I want to back up a little bit and just how did you, how did you get into those kinds of roles? Where did you start in terms of the actual work you were doing, and then what was the transition like getting into some of those higher level roles?
[00:05:57] Anmol Vanamali
Sure. Some of it was by design and by design I mean the sort of, you know the academic pursuits that I had. So I got a business degree coming right out of undergrad.
I did my undergrad in computer technology, which while it showed me that I had an aptitude for analytics, also made me realize I cannot be a developer.
So right out of undergrad, I decided to join a business school because I was getting really interested in finance and economics, and that gave me my break in finance, you know, as a typical business school grad gets a break.
From there on again, I realized if I want to work in some of the most prestigious institutions working on public policy or international finance, I needed a platform, like a graduate school degree from the US from a well-known university that would give me that break.
So, I came to the US to get a master’s in international affairs with a focus on international finance from Columbia University, the School of International Public Affairs at Columbia.
That again, gave me the sort of lift I needed to break into some of the more well-known financial institutions in the world.
So I got my break in Macquarie, which is a global financial institution, especially known for its work in investments in infrastructure and clean energy.
After that, I no longer had the benefit of a platform, like a degree anymore after that it was opportunity, it was by accident, and by just networking.
Like I said, the great financial crisis really made me question what I was doing on the private sector side of things and so I grabbed the opportunity and decided to move to DC from New York.
I took a 75% pay cut to join a think tank, and we can get into what that means for young professionals, but I took that opportunity.
At the think tank within a few months we realized that there was something wrong with the finances, of the think tank and so there was a complete overhaul of the finance team.
They couldn’t really afford to hire an experienced, finance director. So I put up my hand, I said, listen, I have a finance background. I’ve never done nonprofit financial management. Why don’t you give me a shot? And before you knew it, I was leading both the finances of the nonprofit as well as leading on international policy analysis.
So again, that, that shows you the intersection of accident and opportunity.
I think once you hit a somewhat mid to senior level position, then it is easier to open doors because you have a track record, you have a network, you have some credibility. So, I leverage all those things to find my next few opportunities.
[00:08:26] Louis DeMaso
I like that you used the concept of raising your hand because that’s exactly what’s come up in the past and just volunteering for those opportunities and following your passion to pick up projects that might be out of your current job description but would lead you on the path to where you want to go sounds so important.
Could you describe a little bit more about that think tank and just, you know, taking that huge pay cut sounds like a big leap, but what drove you to take that leap?
[00:08:52] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, it was daunting for sure.
What drove me was the frustration that this was my second job in the private sector where I thought what I was doing was good, but the rules of the game were so bent out of shape that it didn’t matter what you were trying to do.
The game was just quote unquote rigged.
So, what drove me to my job in a think tank was it was a think tank that, and it still exists, and I’ll get to that in a second too. But, Center for Clean Air Policy was formed with the idea of developing pragmatic solutions that leveraged the power of markets to, to deliver environmental and climate, good or change.
And so I knew it was a place where I could use all my knowledge about finance, but help shape markets in a way that we don’t have to see the great financial crisis perhaps on the climate side. Or, or, or, or deliver suboptimal outcomes for the environment and society when we, when we invest in public good.
So that’s what drove me. there were of course other considerations as an immigrant at that point about where hiring was. And let’s be honest, when the financial crisis happened, there weren’t really too many jobs in the financial world, even if I wanted to pursue them.
So again, it was a confluence of factors, but I think the biggest was the motivation to be a part of change and not just wait for someone to figure out what the right balance of, you know, markets and public policy was, but to be a part of that change.
[00:10:18] Louis DeMaso
Absolutely.
What is impact investing and how can you start working in the field?
[00:10:19] Louis DeMaso
You mentioned investing in renewable energy, and I know that green finance was a large part of your career.
Could you describe a little bit about what impact investments are and the important role that those play in sustainable development?
[00:10:33] Anmol Vanamali
I think many, many finance professionals and observers of financial markets have realized over time that there’s, there’s a sometimes a solitary emphasis on financial returns without necessarily looking at the other outcomes that are generated along with the financial returns for any investment opportunity.
Typically, you know, it is looked upon as collateral damage.
As long as we’re delivering financial returns and we are following and obeying the law, it’s almost irrelevant what the other outcomes are.
[00:11:03] Louis DeMaso
Those are like the rules of the game that you described earlier, right?
[00:11:06] Anmol Vanamali
Exactly. Exactly.
And again, for someone who’s only trained in finance, that doesn’t seem like an unreasonable stance to take.
You know, they are public policy officials who are entrusted with the job of designing a fair market, and I’m just executing on those rules, so it is not my responsibility.
However, certain more, let’s say, socially-minded finance professionals took it upon themselves to design a kind of investing and sometimes an asset class, which not only delivered investment returns but also delivered positive environmental and social outcomes.
That is the philosophy behind impact investing.
How do we ensure that, well, how do we create the space for investments which deliver on all three? The triple bottom line, as many people call it. Financial, environmental, and social.
So, impact investments are definitely one construct to achieve the triple bottom line.
And the way it is important for sustainable development goals is because… we know that government spending, foreign aid, is not sufficient to meet our sustainable development goals. It’s a drop in the ocean, in that sense.
So, impact investing becomes a good construct to channel private sector financing to meet sustainable development goals, because that’s the whole point.
[00:12:24] Louis DeMaso
I can imagine that there are a lot of financial professionals who would love to be involved with impact investing and contributing to that triple bottom line.
What types of skills would you say they should develop or just recommendations do you have for somebody who wants to get into that type of career?
[00:12:38] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, I mean, there’s several ways to get into impact investing as a field, right?
I mean, one is you are a trained investment and finance professional.
Because, ultimately, no matter how you market it, an impact investing fund does require a sound grounding in investment principles.
So, investment professionals, in that sense, have a great pathway into the impact investing world.
The other ways would be if you’re from a development background, because people who’ve done international development, whether, you know, right out of undergrad through Peace Corps, et cetera, or more hands-on work in international development programming through implementers like Windrock International, they all have a role in helping impact funds deliver on the environmental and social outcomes.
Because, ultimately, the success of an impact investing fund requires all those capacities, investment capacities and professionals who know how to deliver those outcomes and measure and report those outcomes.
People who’ve worked in development tend to know how to deliver positive environmental social outcomes and also how to report and communicate those outcomes as well.
So they, I think, are valuable for impact investments as well.
Finally, anyone who’s involved in operations of nonprofits, et cetera, or even financial institutions can find roles in impact investing.
[00:13:56] Louis DeMaso
It sounds like if you have skills in finance or in international development or in business management that’s a foot in the door and then just shoring up those other areas and those skills as you go, would be an option, right?
[00:14:07] Anmol Vanamali
Absolutely. And you know, when you go through these hiring processes, it becomes pretty obvious to the hiring managers whether you do have a passion for the issues and I think that is irreplaceable and a critical ingredient of any person’s success in these fields.
[00:14:21] Louis DeMaso
Could you describe, as somebody who’s held multiple executive roles, if you’re hiring for a position in sustainable development or in green finance, what do you look for?
[00:14:31] Anmol Vanamali
A lot of it obviously comes down to the details of the position, which goes without saying, but you know, there are markers in people’s career trajectories, academic pursuits that show an affinity or an alignment to the issues that you as an organization or as a hiring manager care about, right?
Whether it was, you know, how did you spend your summers or your internships. Whether you pursued those opportunities which just make sense or everybody’s doing them, or did you seek out certain opportunities because they were aligned with your passions and the issues that you cared about?
So, I think the longer you, you know, the longer you live, the longer your career is, there are more abilities to land those markers and for hiring managers to spot them.
So, you know, there are fewer places to do that for someone coming, fresh out of undergrad. But if it’s a mid-career professional, I can read between the lines if it’s not explicit about how they pursued opportunities, which actually aligned with the issues.
Learn how you can make the business case for sustainability and encourage the private sector to act.
[00:15:31] Louis DeMaso
At Georgetown University, I know you lead a course called Sustainability and Business Adapting to the 21st Century, right?
[00:15:37] Anmol Vanamali
Yep.
[00:15:38] Louis DeMaso
Could you describe a little bit about that course and specifically what lessons you try to impart to students?
[00:15:43] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah. I do a whole bunch of things, but that’s definitely one of my favorite things that I do with my time in the past few years.
It was a course that existed prior to me taking this position but I replaced someone with the condition that I get to design a course of my own.
So the way I envisioned the course was that, in my own experience, it’s become very obvious to me that we cannot meet our sustainable development goals unless we involve the private sector right in the outset.
They hold the capital, they hold the influence, they hold the human resource capacity.
So, there’s almost no way to meet any public policy goal without including them, no matter which country we’re talking about.
It is especially important in developing countries where there is even less capacity in public institutions.
But, one of the big barriers we run into is that students tend to get trained on those aspects of delivering change without necessarily understanding how it intersects with the private sector.
So for me, this course was about illuminating those points of intersection and then providing them with the case studies and the tools to actually then go about working in that intersection of development and private sector.
That’s how I design my course.
I first take them through the trajectory of how the private sector has become increasingly important in global development, and then take them through different frameworks through which private sector can be employed to deliver change for a better world, and then take sector-deep dives in climate change, water, human rights, and sustainable energy to talk about practical examples and also challenge them.
It’s a half semester course, but a bunch of them have, not complained, but have raised a point that I make them do more work than a full semester course sometimes… but that part of the idea.
[00:17:31] Louis DeMaso
It’s interesting to hear that there’s the same problem of development educations don’t necessarily address some of the more functional business requirements for actually getting into the workforce and making a change, because I experienced the same thing with environmental science.
I studied the science behind environmental challenges and learned about sustainability, and then I got into the workforce and found that a knowledge of business and accounting and finance and being able to make the business case for addressing some of those challenges is one of the most important things to actually getting something done.
So I started to become much more interested in business and much more interested in executive management and all that to supplement the understanding that I had of the environmental challenges that we face.
[00:18:15] Anmol Vanamali
You raise a great point about making the business case, because to me, it’s one of the abilities I think I’ve developed over time through the different, uh, roles that I’ve had, is the ability to make the case.
I think the power of persuasion is what delivers change, ultimately, because any of these, you know, shifts in the way we are trying to go about doing our business require a multi-stakeholder effort.
That then requires someone to persuade everyone to align their actions and then not only enjoy the benefits, but sometimes even share the downsides.
So I think one skill that becomes extremely important, and it’s not something someone can teach you right out of grad school, is the ability to make the case, the ability to persuade people that have different objectives, perhaps, in their own roles but are aligned at a higher level to act together.
And I think that is something you only develop with experience.
[00:19:12] Louis DeMaso
What have you learned through the course of your career that makes you effective at making that business case?
[00:19:20] Anmol Vanamali
I think it is having an interdisciplinary background myself.
I had an undergrad in computer technology. Then, I learned business management and finance. And, after that, I went to public policy school.
So, I think having an interdisciplinary background, whether it’s through your academics or personal interests, definitely helps because you’re able to parse through what people are saying and get to the crux of the matter and understand different perspectives.
That’s one.
And I think then the life experience of having grown up in a developing country, but then having migrated to the US also certainly helps you understand different perspectives. and then a personal interest of of being comfortable dealing with different cultures, different languages.
I’ve taken it upon myself and my life to learn three different foreign languages.
So I think pushing yourself, to, to be that bridge, that connective tissue between seemingly disparate parts of the world, I think positions you to do things like that.
[00:20:19] Louis DeMaso
If you zoom in on that idea of connecting disparate parts of the world or of a system, could you reflect a little bit on what that looks like within an organization or within a project or initiative?
[00:20:29] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, certainly, uh, my second job in Washington, DC was to work alongside the DC government, and I’m gonna give you a domestic example and international example, but my second job in Washington DC coming out of CCAP was to work alongside the DC government to leverage their funding and mobilize more private sector capital towards clean energy projects that were focused on low-income housing for the most part.
That needed someone who could speak both languages. That needed someone who could interact with the government officials on one hand to understand the pressures that they face in where their funding can be allocated, with whom they can partner, and then also understand what incentives the private sector needed and what returns they needed to make in order to actually then go ahead and invest their dollars in projects that serve the underserved market.
Speaking those two languages and then the ability to design financial mechanisms that currently did not exist in the marketplace was sort of the third leg of this tool that I needed in order to then stand up and deliver on those outcomes.
So you know, I relied on all that I learned in my previous jobs which was understanding how the private sector works, designing financial mechanisms, and then working with governments to be able to do that job.
Then, coming out of that job into Winrock, my first project was to work on increasing private sector involvement and climate adaptation.
Which sounds wonderful, and which is why I took the job, but the challenge here is that there’s very little track record of actually getting the private sector to invest in climate adaptation.
Most of the investments so far, from the private sector have gone towards climate change mitigation, which is reducing our emissions.
Very little has gone towards adapting our world to a changing or changed climate, and the number one barrier to do that is to develop a business case.
Because, first of all, you have to convince the private sector yes, that there is a climate change problem. You may think it’s two decades from now and your job is to deliver on next year’s quarterly report, but no, it is a real challenge.
Then you have to convince them that it is not somebody else’s problem, but there are actual tangible actions you can take to invest your own dollars to make that change.
And again, I relied on all my previous expertise in climate policy in business and finance to work alongside companies to help them identify those, those areas of climate vulnerabilities and design business models where they could invest their balance sheets and their human resources.
[00:22:58] Louis DeMaso
I can really see how the skills that you’ve developed in bringing people together and describing that business case come together for all of the different roles in global development and green finance.
[00:23:11] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, and you know, that’s one of the, that’s the number one thing all my guest speakers at Georgetown tell me is that ultimately a lot of their success depends on their ability sitting within the sustainability department to make the business case to their, to the other line managers, the ones who actually go about doing the business part of the corporation.
Anmol’s favorite framework for bringing businesses together to conserve resources.
[00:23:32] Louis DeMaso
Well, I took us down a bit of a side path, but the Georgetown University course sounds so interesting and I want to hear a little bit more about that.
The frameworks that you described for thinking about private capital, that you impart to your students, could you describe one of those frameworks in depth or one that you think is particularly useful?
[00:23:51] Anmol Vanamali
You know, one sort of framework or construct, which I am increasingly in favor of or look to as a way to break through the log jam of the curse of the common resource, right?
Just take a watershed for example. Any river has x number of private sector companies that depend on it.
But at the same time, none of them thinks their singular action to improve the health of the river will make any difference if the other companies also drawing from that river, if they don’t do anything about it.
So, a really powerful construct in collective action is called the pre-competitive agreement where someone, this could be a nonprofit, could be a company, could be a trade association, gets these different private sector companies that draw from the same natural resource or work with the same social stratum of, of the market they’re working on and agree upon the rules of the game.
In absence of a well-functioning, well thought out public policy, companies can get together in a pre-competitive way, agree upon the rules of engagement with that natural resource, and then share the burden of what it takes to make the natural resource exploitation more sustainable and then also obviously share the credit for having done so.
And so you can see where a lack of trust, or a lack of a well-managed process for this pre competitive agreement, could fall apart when people aren’t taking on the fair share of the burden or are taking more than the fair share of the credit.
That’s when the ability for someone who can work together with different teams while dispassionately holding them accountable becomes crucial.
And I think that’s a great place for students to work on, whether with nonprofits or within trade associations,
[00:25:40] Louis DeMaso
And it may go against some of the typical or traditional thoughts around economics and open market competition, right?
[00:25:48] Anmol Vanamali
Yes, exactly, right? Because, instead of saying, you know, each company is on its own, you eliminate the competitive parts and you focus on a larger issue.
How new schools of thought are creating ‘the wild west of management theory’.
[00:25:59] Louis DeMaso
It sounds like there’s this tension between traditional economic thought and newer impact investing type economic thought.
Could you describe a little bit about that shift? Especially from the academia realm, because that’s what you’re working in now, and how students might be taught differently today and how that conflicts with managers who may have been brought up in a more traditional school of thought.
[00:26:24] Anmol Vanamali
I imagine it is, it is a shift in academic thought in business schools, you know?
But if you think about academic in a public policy school, this is always what public policy schools have trained their students for is understanding the externalities of private action and what the appropriate regulations and mechanisms are to minimize those externalities while also delivering economic output.
But I think it is a different way of looking at things from, from a business school perspective, because I think instead of now training managers to maximizing profit, they have to equip their, their managers in training on how to maximize their their profit, while keeping sustainability in mind, which sometimes means foregoing short term maximization for long-term optimization.
And so that’s the jargony way of saying that, if you end up exhausting the natural resource on which your long-term survival depends, then it’s a pirate victory.
So part of your responsibility is to make sure that that resource is around to deliver those, those raw commodities that your company then converts into products or services and then eventually delivers returns to your shareholders.
I think stakeholder management is as important as shareholder management, which is a different way of looking at things.
[00:27:48] Louis DeMaso
I love that distinction between shareholders and stakeholders. And how there’s really no distinction at the end of the day.
[00:27:54] Anmol Vanamali
Exactly the, the interrelationship between stakeholders and shareholders… I think that’s, that’s the exciting part, but that’s also like the wild west of management theories now.
There are different management gurus who have come up with their way of establishing those relationships, but it changes over time. It changes with the context. It changes with different challenges. It’s interesting stuff.
[00:28:17] Louis DeMaso
I’ve seen the frustrations of business managers who are focused on efficiency, profit, operations, and feel like considering all of this sustainability stuff is just so much extra to worry about.
But I like framing it as just long-term strategy. Like, you’ve got short term strategy under control, but what are you doing to make sure that the business is successful for the next 20 years or 50 years?
I think that helps frame it in a way that seems more approachable.
[00:28:46] Anmol Vanamali
Absolutely and, and which is why, you know, sustainability cannot start in the hands of line managers.
While, you know, many of the sustainably movements are, are bottom up, when it comes to, I think private sector involvement, the most effective way is, is top down. I mean, it has to start from the C-suite.
It has to manifest itself in business strategy and clear signals and directions to the managers involved.
In absence of that, like you mentioned, it’s just a whole bunch of frustration, and false starts.
Where to start if you are young, passionate, and want to have an impact.
[00:29:18] Louis DeMaso
If a person is working in a company, maybe they’re at an associate level or an entry level position, and they see the opportunities, they’re passionate about sustainability, but their C-suite executives may not be keyed into those opportunities…
Do you have any recommendations for how they should go about pursuing those opportunities within the company? Maybe helping shift the company’s strategy?
[00:29:39] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah, I mean, that, that’s, that’s a tough one to answer because you know, we, we have to recognize, you know, the zone of influence for, for someone at an associate level.
But it starts with choosing the right company to be honest, and the right manager.
I think having the right manager with whom you can chart out your, your areas of focus over the next two, three years and how, what, how. Different things that you’re doing can incrementally add to shifting the company’s practices or specific projects that act as proofs of concept, I think could be really useful.
But yeah, I mean, having gone through the associate level myself to reach where I have reached, it’s, you know, there, there are limits to what one can do, which is why I think being in the game, understanding how systems work to then get to a point where you actually have the influence and the power is also very important.
[00:30:37] Louis DeMaso
You mentioned earlier about how once you get to that manager level position, there’s more latitude and, and more opportunity.
It sounds like maybe when you’re at a lower level, the focus is developing skills, raising your hand, pursuing any opportunity that you can see to work on something that would add valuable skills to your tool set, and just looking for and waiting for that opportunity to strike.
[00:31:03] Anmol Vanamali
Exactly. And you know, I mean, president Obama recently said something on a podcast when someone asked him, what’s the number one advice you give to youngsters who passed through Obama Foundation? And he said, just learn how to get things done.
I think having that sort of credibility, opens doors internally, externally, when you raise your hand, people then actually pick you because they know that, you know, this person can actually then deliver. So yeah, a lot of it is just, first of all, building up that confidence that you can get things done and then getting other people to believe in you as well.
[00:31:36] Louis DeMaso
It can be hard if you’re young, passionate, eager, and ready to make a change. But, I think many people would find that the opportunities come faster than they might think if they’re patient and focus on developing themselves.
Would you agree with that?
[00:31:49] Anmol Vanamali
Absolutely. and I was, I was one of those eager, you know, impatient, young professionals myself, and I did find myself getting frustrated, many times.
And if I had a mentor back then, who would advise me to, to keep the long-term goal in mind and, and get the best of what I could in my current role, then I might have done things different.
I mean, of course, I, I don’t regret any of the roles or any of the decisions I made, but I may have done things differently.
[00:32:18] Louis DeMaso
So in a previous interview, you said, as a climate risk world is gradually mainstreamed, the next generation will have the ability to approach it from different perspectives. For those interested in building a climate resilient world, my advice would be to develop an understanding of the interrelationship between climate and the different parts of the economy or the socioeconomic structures that surround us.
It seems related to what we’ve just been describing, but could you just describe this perspective a little bit further?
[00:32:44] Anmol Vanamali
Yeah. You know, especially when it comes to adapting to climate change, it is all so systemic. There is no silver bullets and there is no one person who can help with the adaptation.
It’s a all hands on deck effort, and in order to even understand how to do the systems change, it becomes very important to understand how different actors interact in that system.
So, to give you an example, I think a lot of us recognize that, you know, one of the leading cause of climate change is deforestation because we know forests are the lungs of the, of the world.
One of the leading causes of deforestation is food production, which we also intuitively understand. We need to produce food because we still haven’t figured out a way to live without eating.
But then, if someone were to think about this in a vacuum, all they would think, oh, I guess what we need is a regulation that prohibits people from clearing forest to produce food.
That sounds like, yeah in absence of reality, that would be the solution, but the fact of the matter is that it in itself won’t work. In many cases that regulation or law already exists.
So why do people continue to deforest?
Well, that’s because there are many other issues that force them to do it.
First of all is environmental degradation. So then you need to understand what the environmental pressures are.
Second, there’s land tenure issues. In many cases, farmers go and indulge in deforestation because they have no security about the land on which they’re currently producing.
And the third is income. I mean, what they end up earning is not sufficient. So they have to expand because they need to raise a family.
So if you think about it, just at the production level, you are now talking about environmental degradation issues, economic development issues, and law.
And so for someone who’s trying to change, you know, the food system to adapt to a changing climate, there’s no way you can solve it without having a, a grasp of all those three areas.
So so that’s what I meant. The interdisciplinary nature of our systems means that anyone trying to change the system has to work within that construct.
[00:35:01] Louis DeMaso
It brings us back to those big functional areas you described earlier of finance, development and operations and it sounds like international development companies that are focusing on these really complex global issues have to focus on so many different components at once.
[00:35:19] Anmol Vanamali
Exactly. So, you know, young professions who want to be part of change. I think they’ll be doing themselves a big favor and they’ll actually help us get to where we need to if, if they spend their time understanding the intersections of all these different things.
I understand it’s hard because ultimately we do wanna focus on one area and become an expert, but that’s a constant tension I felt as well in my life, you know, as a student, as a professional, is how deep do I go into a subject while at the same time have the ability to look at the big picture and the interrelationships?
[00:35:51] Louis DeMaso
Have you found a solution for that?
[00:35:54] Anmol Vanamali
I don’t know if there’s one solution, but one thing that does help is curiosity.
I think asking the question about why, just, you know, I mean, and you don’t have to figure it out yourself. I mean, you know, you have, especially if you work and live in a place like DC there’s so many experts around you who’ve, who’ve not just read more books than you.
In some cases, they’ve written the books that you read. About these issues is that you need, you know, it’ll be foolish not to leverage the intellectual weight, of, of those people.
So, you know, throughout my life I’ve tried my best to associate myself with, with bodies of, of intellectual work, with may or may not be part of my day job.
So, you know, as I was when I was describing the work I was doing clean energy financing, I also became a fellow of the Atlantic Council’s Emerging Leaders in Environment and Energy Policy program, which again, gave me the ability to, to draw upon other people’s views and expertise in a way that informed my own, worldview.
I recently, you know, joined the board of the Center for Cleaner Policy, because I know not only will seek a benefit from my experience, but I’ll also get to learn from the current work that CCAP’s great staff are doing, the other board of directors, their expertise.
So yeah, curiosity and actually taking proactive efforts to engage with people who know more than you or know different things is one way to do it.
[00:37:21] Louis DeMaso
That concept of curiosity, raising your hand, stepping out of your comfort zone, just continuing to learn and explore new topics keeps coming up as just key for sustainability roles.
And it’s probably because sustainability is such a fast developing space that you just have to keep learning to even have a shot at keeping up with it.
Would you agree?
[00:37:41] Anmol Vanamali
Absolutely, um, and again, this comes through in the presentations that the guest speakers give, you know, in very few cases, I don’t think in any case, did they have a linear path into getting that job within that corporation.
Most of them came from one of two fields.
One was a development field. You know, they were Peace Corps volunteers, then they worked in the field in healthcare programming.
Or they, they came from a technical field where they were steeped in, in let’s say water management. But ultimately they recognize that corporations are are agents of change, you know?
Unfortunately, they’ve been the agents of, of bad change for environment, environment reasons, but they could be actually custodians of our environmental future if, if someone from within can help them see that it’s better for them.
[00:38:31] Louis DeMaso
Absolutely. Are there any common themes, common pieces of advice or things that you’ve noticed that these speakers of your lecture come to say?
[00:38:42] Anmol Vanamali
I think it’s, it’s some, some of that mirrors my own career trajectory and my own drivers.
Seek a purpose, reach across the aisle, you know, build, build bridges, break down barriers, curiosity, and ultimately, being open-minded I think is one that comes across a lot.
I don’t think they’ve necessarily said this in as many words, but I,
I know this for a fact, is when you do meet people who don’t have the same views of yours, it’s not necessarily as if they’re personally against climate change necessarily. They just have a different job.
So, you know, while sustainability is considered as a separate vertical and not mainstream. There will continue to be tension between people whose job is the business and people who’ve been hired as sustainable professionals.
I think by the time my son grows up, it’ll be one and the same because there’ll be no other way to do business, but to be sustainable.
But until then, there will continue to be these two sets of professionals.
And I think, you know, I’ll go out on a limb and say, people on the sustainability side are better equipped to reach out to the business side right now and build those bridges.
[00:39:53] Louis DeMaso
I love that, and I hope that we can close that gap between a sustainability role and a non-sustainability role sooner rather than later.
[00:40:00] Anmol Vanamali
For all our sakes, I hope that is sooner rather than, yeah.
The three most important steps for us to take to accelerate our transition to a more sustainable world.
[00:40:03] Louis DeMaso
You’ve been exposed to so many different types of initiatives, types of companies, nonprofit versus private sector, even working on different topics…
I’ll end with, what do you think are some of the most important steps for us to take in business and society to accelerate our transition to a more sustainable world?
[00:40:20] Anmol Vanamali
All right, I’m gonna give a three-part answer.
One is, I think as citizens of democratic countries, we do need to vote for people, for politicians who understand these are issues that need to be taken care of, both by public institutions and the private sector, because I think a lot of change depends on the right policy signals and the right incentives coming from governments, especially in the developed world where governments do hold a lot of sway, and where, you know, regulations matter to a large extent.
So I think that is number one. We need to get the right kind of people in power in our public institutions.
The second is, I think as shareholders as, you know, whatever your ability to influence a company is, we then need to get the right sort of leadership and management in charge of our corporations because I find it almost impossible for a corporation to change bottom up. That’s not how corporations are laid out. The change does start from the top.
So we need the right leadership in private sector institutions.
And I think for people of, you know, of people in your station in life, in mine, as well, I think we need to be the agents of change in every part of our life, whether it’s a personal consumption decisions, whether it is, you know, our workplace, et cetera. You know, where we choose to work and how we choose to work.
I think those of us who are sustainability-minded just have to bring that in, in every way we can.
I think the confluence of having the right people in powerful positions in public institutions, private institutions, and people who perhaps lack the power in their current situation in life, but have the ability and the consciousness doing all that they can, that’s probably the only way to meet our sustainable development goals.
[00:42:27] Louis DeMaso
That’s an inspiring vision… and working from both the top down and the bottom up can help us get there faster, right?
[00:42:36] Anmol Vanamali
Faster and, and I will say probably the only way to get there. The enormity of the challenges we face is, you know, is daunting.
We’ve probably witnessed as Americans in this year with the heat wave and right now my native country, India, is getting lashed by rains of magnitude I haven’t seen in a while…
Yeah, we need to get there faster and together.
[00:43:01] Louis DeMaso
Well, Anmol, the perspectives you’ve shared today can help so many people understand where to start.
For people who are passionate about getting into this space and working on these issues, there’s ways to get involved and there’s ways to make a change.
So, Thank you so much for sharing some of your experience with us and for, describing the stories that you told.
[00:43:21] Anmol Vanamali
No, thank you. It was my pleasure, and thanks for all that you do as well.
